Discussion: how to make the game less random and more skill based?

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Spideyko
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Discussion: how to make the game less random and more skill based?

Post: # 35114Post Spideyko
February 15, 2020 11:40:50

The random chakra is really hurting the game IMHO. You can be the best player in the universe but if you just have no bloodline user in your team and get fucking 3 bloodlines 2 times in a row, there's no way you can win.

I have some suggestions:

Make the random exchange cost 4 chakra instead of 5

Make it so that you only get chakras that your team uses (e.g. if you have Team 7, you will not get any bloodline or genjutsu chakras)

Revamp the entire chakra system. Make it individualized, so that every character will have their own chakra pools. For example, Naruto will have 5 "slots" and each round he generates 1 chakra (either tai or ninjutsu) that only he can use. This opens the game up for a whole new variety of strategies, moves, new systems. It would be much more competitive, less random. Every turn, all the characters would have their own chakras, and all of them would be able to use at least one move. You could also spy on the enemy with some moves (Ino (S) I'm looking at you, or Shikamaru (S)) and find out how much chakra they have.

Another idea about revamping the chakra system: Make it so that you start the round with 20 random chakras and you never gain any chakras anymore, you only use them as you see fit. For stalemate reasons, let's say that after turn number 10, you will start getting 3 random chakras each turn as it is now. This also opens up a whole new world of strategies and competitive play.

One last idea: give certain characters a higher chance of getting the chakra they need. For example Lee would have 25% increased chances of getting Taijutsu because he is a taijutsu only user. Ninjutsu-only users would also have that. Characters that use Taijutsu and Bloodline would have 10% higher chance on both. Characters that use all the chakras would remain the same. Get it?

I'm sorry but the current system (and therefore the old system) is garbage. It does not mean that you have 25% chance of getting a chakra, because all of them have a 25% chance, therefore it is completely random. There is nothing stopping you from gaining 3x genjutsu chakra every round for 10 rounds in a row. It has NOTHING to do with competitive gamelay and balance, and everything to do with pure luck. A beginner player can easily defeat a jinchuuriki simply because of luck.

IF we want to stay with the "random" chakra, MAKE IT LESS RANDOM. Studies have found that people prefer less 'randomized' things as opposed to truly being random, because real 'random' does not feel very random. If you get 3x taijutsu 5 times in a row, does that feel random? NO it doesn't, but it IS. SO, make it LESS random. Make ti so that you cannot receive 3x the same chakra for more than 2 turns in a row, or something similar.

Please let's do something with this. This is one of the best online browser skill based competitive games (I mean, is there ANYTHING like this? I don't think so) and it suffers so much from the luck aspect.

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ULTRAXION
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Re: Discussion: how to make the game less random and more skill based?

Post: # 35169Post ULTRAXION
February 15, 2020 16:23:22

I really get your points and I'm interested in some of your ideeas.
Have in mind that characters like Gaara/Lee, Kakashi or Anko would be over-broken, because of almost always being able to get the chakra they need. Example: you are 1v2 Temari. As you mentioned in an ideea, you should get only ninjutsu because that's the alive character you got. But then you will just spam the first skill and be infinitely-invulnerable (ofc if they do not have mental skills). Another bad example would be playing a full ninjutsu team, including Gaara, just for receiving only ninjutsu for his Burrial (and using the other chars as dummies).

I do agree that rng is bad. But there is no need for a whole chakra system revamp, maybe just some slight optimizations like the limit of the same-type chakra you can own at a time (e.g. 5 white chakras at max). Exchange down to 4 from 5 wouldn't be a bad idea either, but maybe the results in the game won't be those which you expect.

All in all, a chakra system rework is possible to require too many facts to be taken into consideration: from overall balancing to some certain characters serious reworks.
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Re: Discussion: how to make the game less random and more skill based?

Post: # 35630Post MoriOgai
February 18, 2020 1:06:57

I'm sorry but I totally disagree. The current chakra system is ideal and I will explain why. There is plenty chars characters who use random chakra, and in addition we earn 3 chakras per round. The percentage of coming 6 bloodlines in a row is minimal, we should not rely on that. What's more, the cool thing about the game is that we learn to count on luck, and actually use it as an addition to our strategy. Poker, for example, is a game of strategy, but we also have to rely on luck. It may seem that luck is what predominates in the game, but in fact it is your bluffing strategy. In N-A you can for example attack one character and then attack another to trick your opponent's "counter", among hundreds of other strategies. It may seem a little unfair, but every great player in all sports and games always has luck, at least the minimum of it. Luck is always on the side of the winners, so add it to your strategy and everything will work out.

Recommend that you watch an anime called Kakegurui.

Boa fortuna.

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Re: Discussion: how to make the game less random and more skill based?

Post: # 35776Post Spideyko
February 18, 2020 21:48:36

MoriOgai wrote:
February 18, 2020 1:06:57
I'm sorry but I totally disagree. The current chakra system is ideal and I will explain why. There is plenty chars characters who use random chakra, and in addition we earn 3 chakras per round. The percentage of coming 6 bloodlines in a row is minimal, we should not rely on that. What's more, the cool thing about the game is that we learn to count on luck, and actually use it as an addition to our strategy. Poker, for example, is a game of strategy, but we also have to rely on luck. It may seem that luck is what predominates in the game, but in fact it is your bluffing strategy. In N-A you can for example attack one character and then attack another to trick your opponent's "counter", among hundreds of other strategies. It may seem a little unfair, but every great player in all sports and games always has luck, at least the minimum of it. Luck is always on the side of the winners, so add it to your strategy and everything will work out.

Recommend that you watch an anime called Kakegurui.

Boa fortuna.

The percentage for 6 bloodlines in a row is exactly the same as for literally any chakra combination. Because it's the same. Each chakra has the same chance, therefore 6 bloodlines is just as likely as 2 nin, 2 tai and 2 genjutsu

and well the rest of what you said... you are trying to defend luck by comparing N-A to poker, which doesn't really work. N-A is a competitive game supposedly based on skill with many characters to choose from. The random element you call 'luck' is great, all I'm asking for is for everyone to sit down and think about it. Look at my ideas. Tell me how they could be improved.

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ULTRAXION
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Re: Discussion: how to make the game less random and more skill based?

Post: # 35822Post ULTRAXION
February 19, 2020 7:59:34

Lol sorry, but you lack maths a lot.

The chance for receiving the same chakra in a row 6 times on separate turns would be
(1/4)^6 = 1/(2^12) *(100% for percents), whilst the chance to get any other combinations that you don't care would be 1-1/(2^12). It's pretty damn hard to get the same chakra 6 turns in a row in separate turns! That because you got 1/4 luck for the needed chakra each turn (if u got 1 character alive).

For more alive characters, example 3 the chance is multiplied with their number.
Therefore you got 1/4+1/4+1/4 chances each turn to get what you need.
Last edited by ULTRAXION on February 19, 2020 11:23:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion: how to make the game less random and more skill based?

Post: # 35823Post orochimarc
February 19, 2020 8:16:16

MoriOgai wrote:
February 18, 2020 1:06:57
I'm sorry but I totally disagree. The current chakra system is ideal and I will explain why. There is plenty chars characters who use random chakra, and in addition we earn 3 chakras per round. The percentage of coming 6 bloodlines in a row is minimal, we should not rely on that. What's more, the cool thing about the game is that we learn to count on luck, and actually use it as an addition to our strategy. Poker, for example, is a game of strategy, but we also have to rely on luck. It may seem that luck is what predominates in the game, but in fact it is your bluffing strategy. In N-A you can for example attack one character and then attack another to trick your opponent's "counter", among hundreds of other strategies. It may seem a little unfair, but every great player in all sports and games always has luck, at least the minimum of it. Luck is always on the side of the winners, so add it to your strategy and everything will work out.

Recommend that you watch an anime called Kakegurui.

Boa fortuna.
I fully agree with this. Give this person a trophy. Just because this game has the influence of luck doesn't mean that is ONLY luck. As @MoriOgai said, luck is always on the side of the winners, so add it to your strategy.
Besides this, the chance are equal. Your oppononet is not privileged. Same as you, your oponnent could be unlucky and receive those 3 bloodlines 2 turns in a row instead of you while you take the win.
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GazaGeneral
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Re: Discussion: how to make the game less random and more skill based?

Post: # 36060Post GazaGeneral
February 20, 2020 18:13:14

The original person didn't mean 6 chakras over 6 turns but more like 9 genj chakras over a 3-4 turn period while you have absolutely no one you team who uses that chakra and while there are certain characters and skills that use random chakra in a situation like the one I mentioned it would be 3 of your opponent fighters who due to his luck get all his required chakra vs your 1 fighter who uses random chakra. Luck plays too great a role in the game

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Re: Discussion: how to make the game less random and more skill based?

Post: # 37139Post Nevuk
February 27, 2020 3:28:58

jaquez wrote:
February 19, 2020 8:16:16
MoriOgai wrote:
February 18, 2020 1:06:57
What's more, the cool thing about the game is that we learn to count on luck, and actually use it as an addition to our strategy. Poker, for example, is a game of strategy, but we also have to rely on luck. It may seem that luck is what predominates in the game, but in fact it is your bluffing strategy. In N-A you can for example attack one character and then attack another to trick your opponent's "counter", among hundreds of other strategies. It may seem a little unfair, but every great player in all sports and games always has luck, at least the minimum of it. Luck is always on the side of the winners, so add it to your strategy and everything will work out.
I fully agree with this. Give this person a trophy. Just because this game has the influence of luck doesn't mean that is ONLY luck. As @MoriOgai said, luck is always on the side of the winners, so add it to your strategy.
Besides this, the chance are equal. Your oppononet is not privileged. Same as you, your oponnent could be unlucky and receive those 3 bloodlines 2 turns in a row instead of you while you take the win.
Luck may be a part of the game, but trying to minimize how much we rely on luck would make players feel a lot more in control. I agree that some skill is involved, but reducing how much RNG plays into the game could positively impact the player base. Minimizing the 'random' factor will definitely improve people's perspective of the game and encourage them to better themselves, while also decreasing a lot of, 'i lost bc luck );' complaints.

Here's a 'gimped' suggestion to reducing the luck factor (somewhat): increase chances of getting chakra you have less of. Luck stays in the game, but this also helps prevent getting the same chakra, to a certain extent. Players would then be able to differentiate between a loss because of lack of skill and a loss because of actual unluckiness.

Edit: To clarify my point of view, revamping the chakra system should definitely be considered and worked on. Luck may be "on the side of the winners", but you don't choose to have luck on your side, nor can you "add it to your strategy" when you can't prepare for what luck grants you.

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